Episode #74: Building a Sustainable & Life-Centered Business: Insights ft. Melissa Kwan (Founder, eWebinar)

[00:00:02] Taylor Kenerson: Hello. Hyperengage podcast. Thank you so much for joining us. My name is Taylor Kenerson, and I am here with Melissa, the cofounder and CEO of Ewebinar. Thank you so much, Melissa, for joining us. [00:00:14] Melissa Kwan: Thanks for having me, Taylor. [00:00:17] Taylor Kenerson: So excited to get this one going. So you have kind of a unique background where you didn't initially come into your quote, unquote career as a founder and CEO. So can you walk us through what your journey looked like, you know, in sales and maybe in that corporate world a little bit before you decided to get into being, you know, a founder and taking that upon yourself? [00:00:38] Melissa Kwan: Yeah. I mean, I would say most people don't start off in their career as founders. They probably wanna be 1. I I guess I was one of those people, like, always kinda play with little ideas on the side with friends, like, even growing up in school, but, like, never really focused. But, you know, I went through a a number of different industries, mostly real estate after I graduated. But also, you know, I've I've sold things in insurance, international trade, furniture, like, all sorts of stuff. But, you know, the common ground was was business development and sales. And the last job that I left was at SAP, and that was 13 years ago. So left SAP, decided to, that it was, like, time to to really focus and start my first company. I think I was, like, 27 or or something like that. Felt really old at the time, but then now I look back and I'm like, oh, that looks young. [00:01:29] Taylor Kenerson: Did something specifically trigger you to take that leap from SAP? I mean, so many people get caught up in the day to day of the corporate world. They realize, you know, they're 70 Yeah. [00:01:47] Melissa Kwan: I Yeah. I mean, I was just never a big company person. Like, before SAP, I always work for smaller companies. Like, not it wasn't really by design or by choice. It was just, like, the way that it was. You know, I was living in Vancouver, and there aren't, like, a lot of big companies. Right? So I just kind of took jobs here and there as they came. And I thought to myself one day, like, I wanna have a big company at some point in my life, and that means I have to work for 1 to see how it works. So I really just, like, looked at this thing called, like, book of lists, which came in, like, you know, business in Vancouver. And SAP was, like, the second biggest software company. Like, Oracle was the first, and I was like, oh, SAP was actually across the street from my apartment. So I was like, oh, well, if I work for those guys, then I can wake up really late and stroll into the office. So that was actually, like, the thought process behind wanting to work for a big company, but I didn't last for more than a year. Like, it was very, very obvious very quickly that I was not made for a big company environment because I, previous to that, was working for smaller companies where I got to be creative in my own role, and nobody really micromanaged me. And then you go into a big company, and all of a sudden, like, you have 40 accounts for the next, you know, 12 months, and you have a boss, and then you have to report to them. You have to, like, input everything into your CRM on Friday, and it barely works. Like, there was all this process that I just kind of hated. So I left because I I was just a bad employee, and I didn't really get along with my boss. And I just felt like it was time to to, like, really start something. So I think it was just like a series of fortunate events. [00:03:30] Taylor Kenerson: And you also went into it with the perspective that you wanted to learn first. Like, this wasn't gonna be your thing that you were gonna get into, that you were gonna spend the rest of your life with, like, building a legacy in one of these companies. Like, you already knew that you had another path, but you knew that you needed to get some kind of experience and understanding the journey of how these companies work and what are all the elements that it takes to make a successful company. Regardless at a corporate level or a small business, there are still some fundamental elements that you need to implement in order to actually achieve that, you know, value and success and bringing that to the market. So can you, let let's take it a little bit into the entrepreneur journey. And you mentioned, I think it's on your LinkedIn, in your LinkedIn bio that you bootstrapped 3 companies. So why, the approach to bootstrapping? And can you kinda walk us through some of the pros and cons? We have a lot of people on the podcast that they, you know, they've bootstrapped themselves or they've taken the accelerator route. And it's really an interesting dynamic when you start to talk to founders on which way they're swaying toward. And it, of course, aligns with, you know, the overall goals of for themselves and for the company. But as someone who's bootstrapped before, what were some of those challenges, insights, and can you, you know, walk us through that journey a little bit? [00:04:47] Melissa Kwan: Yeah. So my first company, 13 years ago was, you know, an agency. Like, it was a product company turned agency, so it just wasn't fundable. And the idea of raising money wasn't a thing. Like, I I was in Vancouver. There was no there was just, like, meetup.com. Right? There wasn't, like, Techstars or YC. Like, there wasn't co working spaces. Like, it was just starting to come out. So you would just meet people at a restaurant that had similar interests, and you would talk about your ideas, and that was the startup community. Right? And I would say that only in the last decade has it actually become, like, a thing with support and and raising money. So, I mean, I just wanted to start my own company, like, my own business. Like, raising capital, like, doing it on someone else's dime was just never an idea. And as I got to know, you know, the start up industry, like, I realized, oh, like, raising money at venture capital is like a thing, and it sounds kind of like a shiny object. And, you know, honestly, my first company was not a fundable business. And that, my first company became my second company, which was, you know, a a enterprise SaaS solution for real estate. So So it was like an open house check-in solution that we sold to, like, brokerages and franchises. And that company was super tough to get off the ground, mainly because I didn't have any experience building a a real product business. And I was in a lot of debt, and I tried to raise money, but nobody would give it to me. And, you know, and and at that time, I had moved from Vancouver to New York to to try to be around, like, similar people. And, of course, in New York, everyone's raising something, and everyone's from Harvard or MIT. And then everyone's asking you what you're raising, and you're like, nothing, because nobody will give me money. But then, you know, it's really funny. Right? Because, like, I I really think the media, like, skews your idea of success, making you feel like if you don't get a check from someone else, you do not have that permission to succeed. You are not good enough. Your your product or your company is too small. You are not an ambitious founder. And I was kind of, like, roped into all that and and kind of, like, feeling bad for myself. But, ultimately, because I couldn't raise any money, I had to just focus on revenue and profit. And I was a revenue driven founder anyway because I've had many years of sales, you know, before that. And, eventually, we were we became profitable, and I was calling all my own shots. I decided to leave New York to travel full time. And I realized, like, over the years I mean, at this point, I've been in startups for, like, 7 or 8 years. So I'm now seeing friends who have bootstraps and like myself with 100% freedom, no stress of raising any money, no growth numbers to hit, and my VC funder friends who were always concerned about the next round and concerned about firing and hiring and new growth numbers. And, I mean, all they cared about was, like, VC intros. So I kind of saw both sides, and I realized that, like, even though I tried to raise money because I thought that was a means to an end, I never thought about what raising money meant for my business. So what it really means for your business is you are inviting bosses that you have no relationship with, and now you're indebted to them. And because they've given you money, you have to hire, you have to grow, and then you have to sometimes ignore, you know, what your customers want in order to drive revenue so that you could get the next round. And it's all messed up. Right? Like, there's a lot of ego involved. There's a lot of, like, misalignment with your business and misalignment with your own mission. So after that company was acquired and let me tell you, like, if I was VC funded, I would not be able to sell that company because it would be too little. Like, would that that company like, that acquisition would have been blocked. And the reason that I saw that [00:08:53] Taylor Kenerson: That's a huge element too. I just wanna touch on that. Sorry to interrupt. When you you mentioned that you obviously, the media per tree is that go go get funding, go get funding. This is the way to scale, grow, and do everything that you need to do. But do you actually know what funding the the responsibility and the extra baggage? Sometimes good, sometimes bad, but that extra elements that actually come along with someone giving you money to do to do something. And then it might not even allow you to unlock your dream of what your original goal for the company was to be. [00:09:27] Melissa Kwan: Well, and that's the thing. Like, nobody thinks about that. And now there's, like, people that are very vocal about what bootstrapping is. Right? Like, you know, Greg Head with Practical Founders Podcast. There's Andrew Gasecki, right, from you know, he has a Bootstrapper's blog, and, you know, he does acquire.com. And then, you know, I always post about bootstrapping because I've seen all the different faces. But that's the thing. Like, imagine you worked 10 years, and that was my position. You worked 10 years. You were sick of your company, and it was profitable. And someone comes over and gives you an offer that's really good, that is absolutely life changing, and you and that allows you to move on to something else. But someone, a VC, 3rd party money, has never worked a day in your business. But just because they cut you a check-in the past, they're able to block that Taylor, and you have to keep doing what you're doing because they would rather you go to 0. Like, that's what VC money is. And if everything is growing and you become a unicorn and you have real business, then that's amazing. But only a 150 companies in the history, like, in the past have ever hit a 100,000,000 ARR, and that would be, you know, a real sellable unicorn. So, you know, that all that just doesn't really make sense to me. So coming into e eWebinar, you know, I I wanted to bootstrap it. Like, it's it's a lifestyle choice. Like, I think bootstrapping and venture capital is not always, like, a financial decision. I think for a lot of people, including myself, it is a lifestyle decision. [00:11:03] Taylor Kenerson: Can you unpack that a little bit and what that lifestyle decision looks like? Because as you mentioned, it's almost a complete shift in the way that you decide to live your life, whichever route you decide to go. [00:11:17] Melissa Kwan: Well and that's the thing. Right? Like, not enough founders start with, like, asking themselves, okay. What is it that it like, they start by asking themselves, oh, what product can I build to have revenue? That's the wrong question. Right? Like, does this product, you know, have a market is the wrong question. Because every idea, if given enough time, you will find your own market, and you can always iterate to find a bigger market. The question you should start with is, what is the life that I wanna live? And then you find the business that fits that life because you're gonna be building this for the next 5 or 10 years if you're lucky. And if you don't wake up every single day doing something that you love and makes you happy, then it's gonna be very tough just as I did. I did not ask myself that question for my first two startups. So I was always, like, a little bit irritated. I wasn't able to celebrate my successes. And when I talk about lifestyle choice, it's things like, I don't I know that I hate managing people. So I come I came into this business, and I said I will have no full time employees. Everybody's gonna be a contractor, but that also allows me to build a company anywhere in the world by hiring people based on their expertise, not location. I don't have to worry about benefits or office space or finding someone local. So that freedom for me is more important than anything. Right? I wanna build a company where we don't really have work hours, like, as long as a customer comes first. We don't have structure. Right? Because I've, you know, I've been a nomad for the past 4 years. Like, I don't have structure, and I wanna give that to my team. But also be able to, you know, travel as much as I want, be able to change the product as much as I want, not have to answer to investors, you know, all those things. Right? Be able to grow slowly. I wanna grow slowly. I don't wanna grow quickly. Like, in my 1st 10 years, I was I was working a lot, and I didn't really think about myself. But now that I've had one exit and I have that breathing room, I want to be able to live and enjoy my life and have real weekends while building my business even though it means growing slowly. So these are the lifestyle choices that you don't necessarily have if, you know, you take outside capital. [00:13:40] Taylor Kenerson: And I think that's a a a huge point. It's being intro introspective. And first, knowing what you want, where you're aligned with. And, you know, you might not always have the destination and the location you wanna go toward or at, but at least having some understanding of where you lie, where your strengths are, where your weaknesses are, where your boundaries are, what you're not willing to compromise on, what you need to happen. And I feel like that conversation with ourselves often doesn't happen until it's too late until you're 5, 10 years into a company, and then you're realizing, oh, crap. I'm not actually happy here because it's not aligned with my passions. Like, then you're stuck, you know, 10 years into a company saying, what are my passions? What do I wanna do? What kind of life do I wanna live? And that's really the question that should be at the forefront before you even go and build your products or your businesses or any iterations off of any ideas is going first at who who are you? What are you about? And then kind of building out from there. And I'm really glad you you touched on that. And, obviously, now, with that experience and with that perspective, you see and you build in a different manner. Just like you said, slow might seem slow to others, but you're methodically building. And you're building a a foundation that actually will set you up to scale and grow in the way that you envision in the future. It just is not maybe happening at the acceleration that the media says it should be happening in order for you to be successful. [00:15:07] Melissa Kwan: Yeah. But, I mean, the media startups aren't real. Right? Like, they write about the starting of these companies, and nobody reports on, like, you know, the destruction of them. Right? [00:15:16] Taylor Kenerson: No. It's not interesting. Where they are. Yeah. Like, they're Where they are. [00:15:20] Melissa Kwan: It's not interesting. Nobody writes around, about the shutdown unless it's like a WeWork, right, or like a Theranos. Right? Then it's like clickbait. But, you know, everything they report on is, like, rosy. But I think what you're talking about, like, being able to be introspective and understand yourself, have your nonnegotiables, like, it's definitely a a learned skill and an earned privilege. Right? Like, I'm 39. I'm turning 40, like, this year. I've had, like, 15 years of, like, solid kind of working startup experience. And you learn a lot about yourself by doing a lot of that stuff that you just hate doing, but that's life. Right? That's even, like, getting to know your friends and what kind of people you wanna let into your community and your circle and who do you wanna spend more time with. Like, I actually wrote an article, about the 10 nonnegotiables that got me to start your webinar, and it's on LinkedIn. But, like, that's how I picked the the idea. I didn't pick the idea that was like, oh, let's do this thing. It was like, okay. What am I the 10 things or whatever? Like, the list of things that I must have going into my next idea. And that was actually how I eliminated 95% of those things. Because then you you start realizing, okay. There's there's so many ideas that could be good, but so few that would allow me to live the way that I want. And, like, now this is the kind of stuff that I like to preach. Like, save yourself. Like, I wasn't able to. Like, if someone's losing your yeah. Save yourself. [00:16:54] Taylor Kenerson: I that and that echoes with me a lot. Like you said, it's a lifelong journey, to understand yourself, and it it evolves just like a product, just like a customer, just like a business. You evolve as a person in where your needs are, your strengths, your weaknesses. That all comes to fruition the more and more you have these experiences and the more you have these conversations and do things that might not you might not be jumping up to joy to wake up to do, but you have to do it in order to get that nitty gritty understanding of what you like, what you don't like, and it comes in those uncomfortable times. So can we now Kwan wanna dive a little bit into ewebinar. You you touched on it a bit. These these 10 nonnegotiables that kind of sparked ewebinar. So what inspired you to start ewebinar, and what lessons have you taken from your previous, companies and applied to eWebinar now so that things are slightly different? [00:17:48] Melissa Kwan: Yeah. So, I mean, just to give some context, eWebinar automates the live webinar. Right? So, we turn any video into an automated recurring eWebinar. So you can do a 100 onboarding sessions, a 100 demos without actually being in front of the camera. What inspired me was this was the problem I lived with in my previous startup. So I was traveling like nomading, and then doing the same demo at, like, 4 AM, 2 AM, 6 PM, like, depending on where I was because I was also working on, like, North American time zones. But all these demos and onboarding and training were, like, exactly the same. So I'm like, this is actually infringing on my lifestyle. So I'm I think you're seeing a theme here. Like, it was infringing on how I was enjoying the city I was in. And it got to a point where I would fly to a new city and test the Internet of my Airbnb or the hotel right away to see if it was fast enough to run a Zoom call, and and then I would, like, go to the lobby at 4 AM, or I would not have a drink, you know, at dinner because I didn't wanna seem, like, red on the you know, on Kenerson. And then I would have to do this exact thing same thing that I did. So it was just something that was, like, eating at me for, like, 5 years. Like, it just didn't. And because we were such a small team because we were bootstrapped, I was everything except for code. So I did all the demos, all the trainings, all the Taylor, and it was just, like, pretty exhausting. And sometimes, like, I would do, like, 7 or 8 of them back to back because that's just what's required to to retain revenue, especially in a SaaS company. So it was just always something that was kind of, like, on the back of my mind. And every quarter, I would, like, look on the Internet to see if something better had come up. Like, it's not like there's nothing out there. There is something out there. But it's like, you know, do you wanna drive, like, a broken Volkswagen or, like, have a Ferrari? So there was just no Ferrari, and I was always embarrassed to use, like, stuff that's out there. So, anyway, so the company was acquired. My previous company was acquired, and I was like, okay. Here are the 10 ideas that I have. Like and I have, like, kind of PTSD from my previous company because I'm like, okay. Whatever I choose is gonna be the next 5 years. What's gonna be the one that keeps me most engaged and and happiest? And I went through that nonnegotiable Melissa. And, like, eWebinar was the one that kinda fit the bill. But it also was the one that I knew the best because I live this problem. I could speak to I, like, I breathe fire for the status quo. Like, if you are doing the same webinar twice, like, why are you doing that? You do not have to do that. And anyone that says, oh, live is better, like, I'm angry at them. And it's hard. Right? [00:20:21] Taylor Kenerson: Yeah. You there's there's something in there. Like, it actually is a a problem that you had, and you actually lived and lived and lived doing it the traditional way. And you Yeah. It was it got to a point you were like, this is this is nuts. It's almost crazy. Like, what are you expecting something different, like, after you're doing the same thing over and over again? [00:20:40] Melissa Kwan: It's so hard to find an idea where it makes you angry at the status quo. Like, you're like, if this is still the status quo, then I must change it. Like, I have to be that person. So, like, I didn't get to that point until I asked myself, what like, how would you feel if someone else did this? In the way that I was thinking for 5 years? And my thought was like, okay. Yeah. That would be pretty crappy. And immediately, I registered the company. It was, like, like, 4 years ago, like, 2019 in March. And so that was, like, only 2 months after I sold my previous one, and, it's it's been, like, a long and slow and exhausting journey since. But it's starting, you know, it's starting to kinda take shape, and, you know, we're super close to profitability, growing slowly as, you know, as I talked about. But, definitely having fun because this is actually, like, a product that people are happy to discover. Whereas, like, my previous company was, like, we were always begging people to buy this thing and people would, like, still get angry at us. [00:21:46] Taylor Kenerson: Like, pulling teeth. You're like, wait. You you might need this. Instead, you're you're experiencing a different kind. You're you're getting that more of that pull, you know, marketing instead of pushing out all this information. People are now finding you, and it's a lot easy. Obviously, it's easier to sell. It's to have those conversations when people are discovering you and are actually like, wow. I I need this. I'm tired of doing the same thing over and over again on the webinar end. So I know you just mentioned, you're about to reach profitability sometime soon, hopefully more sooner than later. So can you talk about in the initial phases of e webinar though, Maybe some of the challenges. And if you wanna take a different approach, some of the things that you knew you had to do because you founded previous companies. So you had that experience of, oh, an entrepreneur and you came in with to this new e eWebinar with that lens where when you first started into, you know, entrepreneur, you you were more on the company side of things, and then you kinda founded your own journey. [00:22:45] Melissa Kwan: Yeah. I mean, I would I wanna start by saying every day is a challenge. Like, literally every day, there's a new challenge. In every phase, there's a new challenge. But the biggest learning that I took, you know, coming into e webinar was exactly what we talked about is, like, how to build your life into your business, not the other way around. I think that's why people live for the weekends, and they hate their jobs. Right? Like, a perfect example is, like, you go to school to be a lawyer because when you're 19, you decide, I'm gonna be a lawyer. And then you're 24, you're like, oh my god. Like, why am I a lawyer? And then and then you're too late. You're in this thing, and you think it's too late to change. And that was kinda what happened to me. I was like, oh, I have I have experience in real estate, so I should do a real estate company. And then all of a sudden, I'm just like, why am I in real estate? And then that's, like, 10 years. Right? So that was the biggest Taylor. It was like, start with something that you love, that fits your life, and you can always acquire the skills to get there. And the I think, like, there were a few big challenges that I didn't see even though I had experience and, you know, hindsight 2020, but there's there's there's only so much you can predict. Right? Like, success is not repeatable. Like, just because you had one success, it does not guarantee you another success. In fact, I I can't find this article again, but, like, one of the Airbnb founders wrote it. Like, there was data to to to suggest that first time founders are more likely to succeed than second time founders. And I think it's because of, like, the naivety that you have. And I think about the naivety that I had in the 1st 10 years, like being so broke and living in New York City and living on, like, under a $100 a day for, like, a year and a half. Like and then I'm like, how did I do that? But back then, it was just, like, life. I would never do that right now. But because I was so desperate, it pushed me to do things that I wouldn't have otherwise done, which, you know, I'm not doing now. But some of the bigger challenges that I came into eWebinar was, like, I was so sick of having a cofounder. Like, Like, for 10 years, I had a cofounder. I was just like, I don't want a cofounder. I I can do this myself. And so I came out, and I was like, okay. I'm just gonna hire a dev shop to build my first version, and then I'm gonna have my life partner, David. He's a CTO. He's a fractional CTO. He's gonna kinda oversee the process, and then we're gonna bridge the the dev shop to Vietnam because we're bootstrapped, so we have to go somewhere else. And then, you know, he will just kinda be an adviser, and then Vietnam will build a product, and it'll be easy. I think we probably, like, spent, I would say, like, 300,000 more than we would've, if we did not do that. So, I mean, everyone that's hired at f shop is probably, like, nodding their head right now, but, like, you just don't know because everybody's like, yeah, Taylor. I can build this thing. It's gonna be amazing. But then everybody underestimates. Right? And then all of a sudden, you find yourself in a position where the product's not great. You don't have full time people working on it. They're trying to deliver so they get paid, but they just don't have capacity because they're not thinking about it 24/7. I mean, eventually, David, my life partner, became my cofounder a year into it because then he started helping out, and I was like and then stuff started working. Like, you know when good software is working and when it's not? And I was like, why am I paying these guys when you can be my cofounder? So we kinda ended that relationship. So it was it it went on for a bit too long, and then we had to redo a lot of code. I think that was number 1, like, the the biggest challenge. But the second thing that I didn't see that I'm still kinda working through, is how hard it is to grow a small like, an SMB product led customer led company. And my previous company is, like, I'm from enterprise sales. What I know is 1 on 1. Like, I pick up the phone and I call. I'm really good at that. I I go to conferences. I set up booths—which I hate, by the way. That was one of my nonnegotiables is no more booths—But I came into the company, and I'm like: “Yeah. Everyone's gonna buy this product because the product's gonna be amazing, and it's gonna save everybody.” And obviously underestimated that, but I didn't realize that when you're selling a $100 product, people don't pick up the phone. Like, you have to attract people in a different way because that's not how they buy. People buy $10,000 products, a $100,000 products and up, like, 1 on 1. Who the heck is gonna buy a Mailchimp from, like, a sales guy? But I had to learn this because I was not from this world. I thought I knew how to sell, but what I needed to know was how to market. And I'm not a marketer, and I didn't realize that until, like, I wanna say 6 months after eWebinar was out the door. So it took us 2 years to build it. And only 2 years plus 6 months when I exhausted my own list, was I like, “holy shit. Like, now what?.” Yeah. And so that's when I, like, discovered this whole, like, world of LinkedIn. And then I took a course on, like, LinkedIn. And, like, that's where I started posting once daily and trying different messages and, you know, like, looking at SEO and what that means and backlinking. So all of this stuff is new, and and that's actually the biggest challenge is is marketing. And I'm still learning and and still working through that. [00:28:17] Taylor Kenerson: And that's a key component. Sales, you know, you could build that skill naturally, you know, as you, you know, have more conversations. But marketing, it almost goes back to when you're first starting a company. You have to understand first, once you have your idea, who's your target market, and what are their what are their traits? What are their behaviors? What what are some of these things that they that they do? And what are some of the things that they don't do that might seem maybe conventional or traditional, but actually differ than that common knowledge? And it's a different way. Just like you said, you knew you had sales experience. And in your head, of course, like, all you had to do is sell the product, but it didn't come down to that one aspect. It actually came down to marketing and how you were storifying and telling the customers about your product and different messaging in different ways not picking up a phone. And that's huge. And the only way, you know, you do that through PLG is, you know, on digital. So how you message, how you storyfy everything is it it can make or break your business. It has and sales is secondary, and your product being good is unfortunately secondary. Because you could sell a a good nice looking bag of beautiful products, and it cannot do anything it says. But if you have that story and you could get someone hook, line, and sinker to believe that you have some kind of a vision, then, you know, you're you're in the game. And I think that's a really important point for for people that are looking to start their own companies. 1st analyze what what your target audience is like that you wanna go after, and what what are their behaviors, and kind of reverse reverse playing that is between [00:29:54] Melissa Kwan: I mean, I think the biggest learning was, like, people don't wanna be sold to. And I think that's more and more like, I think, like, I I bring up this report a lot is, like, TrustRadius has a report that they do every year called b to b buying disconnect. Last year, I think the stat was something like 87% of people, like buyers, wanna do their own research. And this year, it's a 100%. And we can relate to that as buyers. Right? Like, as sellers, we're also buyers, but there's such a disconnect. Like, when I'm selling, I wanna force you to get on the phone. Give me your contact. Give me your email. I don't wanna gate everything, my pricing, my demo. But when we're buying, we're like, well, give me everything up front and let me decide. Right? So, like, we're not those 2, but that's also an opportunity for companies that realize that to to better align what the consumer wants with with your own messaging. But really, like, learning that people wanna do their own discovery, especially at this price point. Like, maybe at higher price point, they still need, like, some sort of handholding because now you're in a different category of of large enterprise. But, like, yeah, like, I think learning who your customer is is just step 1, but, like, how are they gonna find out about you? Right? And it has to come off in a way that's, like, authentic and not sales y. And you and these are not problems that advertising can solve. Right? These are not things that you can throw money at because especially if you're if you're bootstrapped. [00:31:16] Taylor Kenerson: And it and it comes down to a fundamental aspect is what we're seeing is we if we put ourselves in the buyer position, we buy to people we have relationships with or brands that we feel like we have a relationship with. And I feel like as, you know, the economy and so many things are shifting, we're seeing that. It's business is gonna be more relationship driven than it ever has been before. Previously in the past decade, you were able to have, you know, a a a good enough sales campaign and good enough sale a marketing campaign that drove revenue. But in today's world, everyone that wants to make it is gonna have to have a good enough sales and good enough marketing campaign. So how are you taking that a step further and not being forceful and actually looking looking at the value of those conversations and not just seeing it as, oh, it's a time waste. No. It's actually, an opportunity for you to drive immense value in the future through that conversation and through that touch that might not seem, you know, evident in in initially. And I think that's that's a critical, point there. [00:32:18] Melissa Kwan: Yeah. I mean and also relationships are, like, so different now. Right? It's not like, oh, I've talked to you today, and now we have a relationship. Right? We also have relationships with people we've never met. Like, people that we engage with Taylor, and that happens on on LinkedIn. Like, I'm never gonna meet some of these people face to face. And there's people that engage my post, and I really like their content. And I actually feel like I have a friendship with them. And, like, a perfect example of, like, we buy from people we know is, like, we're looking at, like, onboarding software right now. And there's something that we use that's, like, okay. It's, like, $70. And then there's, like, you know, Userpilot, which is, like, way more expensive, probably made for companies way larger than us. But then their head of marketing, Emilia, like, I really like her content, and I've never met her. I've never talked to her. But, like, we kind of, like, tag each other, and we're, like you know, we kind of support each other on LinkedIn. And I'm like, let's see what this user pilot thing is, and let's get on a demo. Like, I don't even know what they do, and they're, like, 5 times the price of what we're paying now. But I just want to know what this is because if it helps us, I would rather buy from, like, from a company that I'm familiar with. And that's why I think you're seeing more and more founders, more and more executives, like, building their community. It is everyone's marketing. Right? Let's just call it what it is. Like, everyone's marketing, but, you know, hopefully, you know, in a more authentic way. [00:33:41] Taylor Kenerson: Yeah. I a 100% echo with that. And it's interesting to see that, you know, you you might not have picked up the phone previously, but you can have those deep relationships that feel deep and are deep. You know? They're just in a different way than we've ever been accustomed to previously. Who's been on the Internet and actually is friends with someone who just slides comments into their, you know, posts? But it's a true thing of today. And if you leverage the opportunities that this digital world is giving us, then the the possibilities are endless. I mean, who's to say that maybe user pilot doesn't have some kind of collaboration with you in the future where they bring down their price point to serve, you know, customers more like you, and, you know, they expand into a new market. So the the possibilities are are endless and and how, you know, companies could take advantage of this this digital world, especially, now than ever. Alright, Melissa. I, I wanna thank you so so much for joining us. We really appreciate all of the insights you shared and really excited to drop this episode for our audience to hear. Thank you. [00:34:44] Melissa Kwan: Awesome. Thanks so much. [00:34:45] Taylor Kenerson: Thanks, Melissa. We'll talk soon. Peace. Cool.